First Thread:
"Did Brown Matter?"
On the fiftieth anniversary of the fabled desegregation case, not everyone is celebrating. By Cass R. Sunstein. Published in The New Yorker, May 3, 2004.
Questions for "Did Brown Matter?"
Students, here are some questions to help you think about the Brown vs. Board decision based on your reading of Sunstein's "Did Brown Matter?" Your responses to the article, or the questions raised in your class discussion, should be well-developed responses based on your understanding of the article and its relationship to our class.
1.
Justice Reed is quoted as saying that Negroes had not thoroughly assimilated. What does this statement imply about the culture in the 50s? Is it the same in 2004?
2.
The author states that "not everyone thinks that it has aged well." How does Sunstein support this statement? What is your opinion?
3.
Michael J. Klarman states in his book that the Supreme Court had little impact on desegregation. What reasons does he give for this? Do you agree or disagree?
4.
Klarman also states that the ruling radicalized Southern politics overnight. What were the lasting consequences for American politics?
5.
Three of the reviewed books state that the Brown case did nothing and was a failure. How do the authors support these opinions?
6.
What is Sunstein's opinion about the Brown case? Did it matter or not?
I agree with Sunstein that Brown vs. Board did matter. After reading the Fourteenth Amendment and skimming the Civil Rights Act, I am convinced that this legislation is humane and should be universal. Legally we cannot discriminate in the public realm. When I consider the implications of that simple statement, it gives me hope that there are forward-thinking individuals who are truly concerned with equity and equality. We may still have de facto discrimination, but, unlike some nations, legally it is not allowed. That's awesome. It's a beginning for acceptance and
accommodation. Maybe in a golden age in the not too distant future, it will also lead to understanding. Now whether or not acceptance and accommodation is multicultural is another issue. I think those attitudes should be universal and not just reserved for the "isms" of our culture. What if there were no "isms"? Would I still have a class? Would MCE even be necessary? That's my response.
Freddie A. Bowles
tulipan@corndancer.com
POSTED Tue 7/13/04 9:45 PM
Thread posted by
Donna Hogan-DeLaPorte
The following response is to the first question on the web page. Justice Reed is quoted as saying that Negroes had not thoroughly assimilated. What does this statement imply about the culture in the 50s? Is it the same in 2004?
Negroes had not thoroughly assimilated into the mainstream of an equal society in the 50s. What this means is that there were still many oppressive racist divisions between the African American population and the White American population.
During the 50s water fountains, restrooms, buses, restaurants, parks and swimming pools were separated by race. If an African American needed a drink of water and there was a sign saying "Whites Only" the African American either had to get their water at the "Colored" water fountain or go without. To ride a public transportation bus they were required to sit in the back and even give up the back seat if another White person boarded the bus and there was no other seat left on the bus. In restaurants there were signs that refused them service: "Colored Not Served Here" or "We Reserve the Right to Refuse Service." And to top it all off, public parks: one for the Negroes' and one for the Whites' segregating the swimming pools as well as any other form of recreation.
No, this oppressive behavior does not exist in 2004. If I want to have lunch with an African American friend we can go and sit together in the same restaurant at the same table. If I want to go to the pool with my African American friend we can swim side-by-side.
-----Original Message-----
From: Donna Hogan-DeLaPorte
[mailto:ddelapo@uark.edu]
Sent: Wed 7/14/04 4:20 PM
Subject: Dicussion Post due 7.15.04
Thread posted by
Sarah-Catherine Wilcox
I definitely think the Brown vs. Board of Education ruling was very
necessary and made a difference in our history. I, obviously, do not think
it was an immediate fix to school segregation, but it was definitely a step
in that direction. I agree that it took a long time to implement; however,
that does not lessen its importance. Like Sunstein states in his/her
article, I think that, if anything, it ruled that under the Constitution,
states may not humiliate a class of people by separating them in that way.
In regard to the last thread, I believe that "isms" or no "isms" there
will always be information to learn about other cultures to increase
understanding and appreciation. Even if there was complete equality and no
racism, I think a multicultural class would still be necessary, because
people will still be different and there is always a need for broadening
one's horizons. Though I do think the class would obviously be set up
differently because with no "isms", there would be no "isms" to discuss.
Eliminating a multicultural class just because we finally reached a utopia
state, means that the only thing focused on in a multicultural class would
be the negatives.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sarah-Catherine Wilcox
[mailto:scw321@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:38 PM
Subject: Brown thread
Thread posted by
Heather Schlichtman
Michael J. Klarman states in his book that the Supreme Court had little impact on desegregation. What reasons does he give for this? Do you agree or disagree?
Some reason were, in 1960, the states in the Deep South had no African-Americans attending the white schools; the schools were segregated. In 1964, more the ninety-eight percent of African-Americans were still segregated in the school in the Deep South. I do agree with Michel J. Klarman. Brown's decision itself did not stop segregation in my opinion. The Civil Rights Act in 1964 was the instrument that really started the desegregation progress. When the Department of Justice threatened federal funds to be taken away from the states, that is when the desegregation process started.
-----Original Message-----
From: Heather Schlichtman
[mailto:hschlic@uark.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 7:36 PM
Subject: Heather Schlichtman's Reading
Thread posted by
P. J. Brown
Mrs. Bowles, in your post you said, "it gives me hope that there are
forward-thinking individuals who are truly concerned with equity and
equality." I one hundred and ten percent believe that the legislature, along
with all the other people in power, is for equity and equality, like you
mentioned, but on the other hand, what if the people that do the
discriminating, or the ones that are discriminated against don't care to
acknowledge that? Even if this is universal, I still think it will be hard
to get the kids (referring to a school setting)to accept and accommodate
like the legislature is. I guess you could think of it like this: doing
drugs is ileagle, but just because the authorities made it a law it don't
mean that everyone will accept it. And not everyone does. My big concern is
now that we have the right people behind this motion, we still need to get
the "people" united.
-----Original Message-----
From: pjbrown@uark.edu
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 11:02 PM
Subject: Brown vs. Board post
Thread posted by
Alena Carter
Klarman felt that the court itself had little to do with desegregation because it lacked the power to overcome local resistance. I agree with this idea. The fact that they could not enforce the ruling right away but enforced it "with all deliberate speed" simply proves this. I feel that the Brown case was a "foot in the door" for African Americans but it took the greater force of public opinion, government force, and time in order to fully achieve desegregation. I believe that we are still working on desegregating some parts of the deep south. There are many schools where the African-Americans are still a great minority and other schools where they are a great majority. This is still a sense of segregation in the schools. I think humans are naturally inclined to act this way.
Alena
-----Original Message-----
From: Alena Carter
snapdragon220@yahoo.com
Sent: Thu 7/15/04 10:44 AM
Subject: brown discussion
Thread posted by
Carrie Keeling
I think that the Brown case did have some effect on desegregation. Yes, I agree that it did start with the 1964 Civil Rights Act but most of the desegregation in the schools started with the Brown case. It took a while for people to do something about it but it did begin with that case. It always takes one person or a few people to begin a movement, and like they said in the article it was going to happen at some point. It just so happens that it began with this case. It is up to the rest of the country to continue the movement and make it happen.
-----Original Message-----
From: Carrie Keeling
[mailto:ckeelin@uark.edu]
Sent: Thu 7/15/04 10:46 AM
Subject: Did Brown Matter? Response
Thread posted by
Ben Lewis
I disagree with Sunstein that Brown vs. Board did matter. I think that social forces would have made it happen sooner or later wether they passed it or not. After the Brown decision it took years for anything to even happen. I beleive that it was five years later and there still were no blacks attending white schools. People have to want to change and just because a court rules on a social matter doesnt not mean that people are going to abide by it. I do believe that the Brown decision might have helped futher the civil rights because it made it illegal, but thats about it.
I am also going to disagree with with Donna that oppressive behavior does not exsist today because I believe that it does in many forms and fashions, its just not as severe. There will also be some sort of discrimmination wether it is against blacks or white. Do know that it is hardest for the white male to get into medical school than anyone else even though they may have higher grades and achievements than some of the minorities that get in?
Ben
-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Lewis
[mailto:bwl01@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thu 7/15/04 12:38 PM
Subject: Brown Thread
Thread posted by
Jessica Clark
I would like to add to Donna's discussion of the first question. I agree that in the 50's African Americans were not permitted to assimilate into the mainstream culture. Donna already summarized the culture of the 50's, so I'll discuss the present.
As a society our mindset has changed about assimilation. In the 50's everyone was expected to conform to the majority culture. Some groups, like the African Americans, were segregated and not allowed to assimilate no matter how much they conformed. Thankfully, the great American melting pot is no longer our goal. There is a growing awareness that other cultures are valid, and it is possible to function as a society without loosing our unique cultural identities. My point is that now most people are given the opportunity to assimilate into American culture. The great part is that we also have the opportunity to choose NOT to assimilate. The lines are becoming blended about what the mainstream culture really is. That means there is more lenience in what you can believe/look like/dress like/talk like and still "fit in".
-----Original Message-----
From: Jessica Clark
[mailto:jplum@uark.edu]
Sent: Thu 7/15/04 1:50 PM
Subject: Brown Discussion
Thread posted by
Katie Newberry
I think that the Sunstein thought that Brown vs. the Board of Educaiton mattered. He did, though, look at a lot of other people's perspectives, seeing that it did take quite a while for things to really happen. Even with knowing that things didn't really start changing until around the time of the Civil Rights Act, he thought that Brown sparked a fire that set things in motion.
I think that if this ruling hadn't happened, or if it was ruled down, there would have just been another event that would have happened to begin the process of desegregation (probably not too far from the time of the Brown incident). Society was itching for change whether specific people or groups of people were ready for it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Katie Newberry
[mailto:knewber@uark.edu]
Sent: Thu 7/15/04 2:08 PM
Subject: Discussion
Thread posted by
Leandra Cleveland
I tend to agree with Sarah-Catherine. Of course MCE would still be necessary even if there were no "isms" in society. MCE is all encompassing, it is about different lifestyles and different customs, religions, and societies. I should hope we don't think MCE is solely directed toward racism and bias. While this is an issue in MCE, it is only but one issue. As to the Brown case. Although the decision took years to implement it was the idea that was important. It got the nation thinking, and headed in the right direction. Even though it was the Civil Rights Act that actually appears to have made the big difference, whose to say we would have made it that far without the Brown case. Most major changes in our nations history have come about slowly with smaller events leading up to the major event. One might look at the Boston Tea Party as a minor event that occurred in lead to the major event the declaration of independence. It was the beginning of the rebellion, or the American Revolution, just as Brown was the beginning of the "ism" revolution.
-----Original Message-----
From: Leandra Cleveland
[mailto:ljpatte@uark.edu]
Sent: Thu 7/15/04 3:01 PM
Subject: Brown Discussion
Thread posted by
Donna DeLaPorte
I just had to tell everyone about the road sign and ask them to think about how they would have felt if they had been raised during the 50s/60s.
Donna
-----Original Message-----
From: Donna DeLaPorte
[mailto:ddelapo@uark.edu]
Sent: Thu 7/15/04 3:48 PM
Subject: 2nd thread to Brown
Thread posted by
Ryan Gullett
I think that the Brown vs. Board of Education was a very important ruling in our great history. I personally think it was good for our country to have desegregation in our schools. I think that it is good to have people from different cultures in your classroom because it will open your eyes and let you see what other people are going through. I think that everyone should have the same rights wether you are white or black. I think even in todays world there is still alot of discrimation detween our different cultures but I think the legislatures are doing a good job by trying to get equity and equality. Kids in todays world grow up knowing that there are different cultures but I don't know if they are really accecpting them like they should. I hope one day we as teachers can help make a difference and pull together as "one".
-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Gullett
[mailto:rpgulle@uark.edu]
Sent: Thu 7/15/04 4:26 PM
Subject: "Did Brown Matter"
Thread posted by
Amy Duncan
I do not agree with the statement that the Brown decision has not aged well. If the decision had not aged well, then we would still be living in a segregated society. Yes, it took a while for the schools to get integrated, but I think that was based on the cultural norm of that time. Schools had been seperate, along with many other things, and that is what the people of that time knew. Once legislation came along to change that it took some time, because the people did not really understand how to do it. Now that it has been 50 years from the date of the Brown decision, we are living in an equal society. Yes, I believe that there are times when it could be more equal, but everyone is allowed to attend a public school, everyone is allowed to vote, everyone is allowed to use the same restroom, eat at the same resturant, etc. There isn't a question about who can be there. I believe that there is plenty of room for more equality in schools, and with time, like the Brown decision, that will happen. I think that we trying to accomidate for cultural differences and make the school system an equal, comfortable place for children to learn, but it may just take some time, like the Brown decision did. I think that people focus to much on the negative aspects of the issue sometimes that they fail to see the positive. Brown did do what it set out to do, maybe not as quickly as it should have, but over time it has. So, I do not see how it could not have aged well.
-----Original Message-----
From: Amy Duncan
[mailto:addunca@uark.edu]
Sent: Thu 7/15/04 5:16 PM
Subject: Brown Discussion
Thread posted by
Alison Bradley
Response to "Did Brown Matter?" Article
I have chosen to address question number six put forth by Mrs. Bowles, which states, "What is Sunstein's opinion about the Brown case? Did it matter or not?" I feel that Sunstein made a valiant effort to include both positive and negative aspects of the passing of Brown v. Board of Education, but that his feelings overall toward the decision were that it served only as a catalyst for future generations to make improvements upon. The Brown ruling helped open a (new) door for African-American students, a door into the classrooms of White students, which for some may have been regarded as a mere band-aid on a large, open wound, while others may have viewed as a great opportunity for African-Americans to prove themselves as equals when given a chance to perform as such.
The article briefly mentions the use of the "white primary" and an incident that took place in 1957 in Little Rock when Governor Orval Faubus used the National Guard to prevent African-American students from attending high school classes. The 1944 Supreme Court case of Smith v. Allwright, declared the white primary unconstitutional and allowed for more voting rights for African-Americans. With this ruling came the impending realization of the decline of political power of Whites at the local level. With that newfound liberty, African-Americans were able to make their voices heard through the power of voting. Governor Faubus felt ill at ease with the activities of the SNCC (Student's Non-Violent Coordinating Committee) because he, his constituents, and the state legislators felt threatened by the actions, increased following and influence of the group. This is primarily because the SNCC enlisted the help of African-American students to volunteer to go door to door to encourage African-Americans to pay their poll taxes and register to vote, which, in turn would only serve to decrease his political standing. (Just a little background into why he acted as he did.)
I feel that Brown v. Board of Education was not entirely successful in its efforts, but it did matter because it served as a pea under the mattress, which has forced individuals of all cultures to (lift up the mattress and) take a closer look at the issues facing us as a nation today.
-----Original Message-----
From: Alison Bradley
[mailto:bradley@cox-internet.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 9:18 PM
Subject: "Did Brown Matter?" Response
Thread posted by
Susan Hinton
I would like to address question #3: "Michael J. Klarman states in his book that the Supreme Court had little impact on desegregation. What reasons does he give for this? Do you agree or disagree?"
I think you have to consider to what time period Klarman is referring. It is probably true that the Brown decision did not have much direct impact on desegregation in the immediate time after it was decided. But eventually, it had to have some impact since it did happen. We are after all, celebrating its anniversary! What Klarman says is that certain social and political issues that were going on around the same time would have caused desegregation to come about anyway. He refers to the "encounter with Nazi racial ideology" of World War II that could have brought about the same outcomes. I disagree though, because nothing happens towards that outcome until the Brown decision. Then, it was so radical at the time that it caused a lot of uproar and violence. The ensuing Civil Rights movement came about sooner because of the decision also. I think the Brown decision was a sort of catalyst that helped propel the idea of desegregation and equal rights to the forefront. Even Sunstein states that the civil rights legislation of the sixties "arose from a sort of backlash to the backlash." So in time, yes, Brown did have an impact on desegregation.
One other note that disturbs me: there are now people who think that segregation should still be in place-that education can be made equal for segregated schools. But history has not shown that to be true. I think that those who want segregation, those that pull their children from racially mixed schools, are simply ignorant of facts. The only way to get people to start accepting the idea of racially and culturally mixed schools is to educate people on commonalities that all humans have, no matter what race or culture. I believe that education leads to understanding and understanding leads to acceptance.
-----Original Message-----
From: Susan Hinton
[mailto:shinton@cox-internet.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 9:21 PM
Subject: Brown Discussion
Thread posted by
Sara Stathakis
In response to question one, I think that Justice Reed implied that Negroes were not accepted into main stream society in the 1950's. They were seen as outsiders. African Americans were not treated as equals. They were often seen as "menaces to society." I think that more recently, specifically in 2004, that there is still a subtle boundary between the African American and Anglo American community. I think, unfortunately, there is still prejudice and bias against African Americans. There have been numerous lawsuits filed by African Americans against companies and businesses for this very reason. Although we have come a long way, there is still much that can and should be done to ensure that all Americans are treated equally.
-----Original Message-----
From: Sara Stathakis
[mailto:LGreekgirll@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 10:54 PM
Subject: Discussion Thread
Thread posted by
Crystal Smith
I think Brown DID matter. Any efforts put forth towards the fight for civil rights is definitely a step in the right direction. If it hadn't mattered, it wouldn't have caused so much of a stir in the nation. If nothing else, it brought about the realization that discrimination and desegregation wasn't going to be tolerated much longer.
I don't think the courts addressed the matter as it should have been, due to the the loose wording of the ruling. I think the case should have abolished desegregation. However, when thinking deeper on the matter and considering the culturalistic values and upbringing of the judges that made the ruling, they may have felt that it was an equitable decision. As referred to in the article, the judges live in our world as well and are not blinded by the views of society, and in the time of discrimination and desegregation, it would've been difficult to go against the majority rule and culturalistic views of the deep South.
-----Original Message-----
From: Crystal Smith
mailto:cms03@uark.edu
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 4:21 AM
Subject: Discussion Thread
Thread posted by
Katy Collins
I enjoyed this article, because it presented several viewpoints concerning Brown vs. Board that I had never considered. Some I agreed with, but some I felt were misguided interpretations. For example, the idea that Brown was a selfish decision to improve our foreign relations and economy (both Bell and Dudziak) seems a bit farfetched to me. Yes, the Court was controlled by outside forces like politics and public opinion to some extent, but I feel this interpretation of the decision assumes that the Justices did not have minds of their own- something I find hard to believe of well-educated, opinionated men. In retrospect, the decision was made at a time when there was no quick fix. Deciding to not require desegregation would have allowed injustices to take place with the "permission" of the law, possibly allowing the situation to escalate and become worse. By declaring the unfairness of "separate but equal" facilities, the Court at least put the law on the right side of the battleline (although there should have been more specific instructions given to the states concerning when and how). No, things did not immediately fall into place- and we still have a ways to go- but the Justices, at the time, made the right decision. Brown made a difference for the better in this country.
-----Original Message-----
From: Katy Collins
mailto:kec01@uark.edu
Sent: Saturday, July 17, 2004 11:01 PM
Subject: Brown Thread
Thread posted by
Laura Johnston
Donna, I understand that you may have been referring to "oppressive behavior" as being things like you mentioned such as eating in a restaurant, seating in public transportation, etc. However, although oppressive behavior may not exist in that particular form in 2004, I agree with Ben that oppressive behavior does indeed still exist. Discrimination taints our society in many ways.
There has been much research conducted on discrimination against women in the workplace. Although salaries for women have become more comparable to those of men, our society has a long way to go concerning the treatment of women in the workplace. Discrimination can also manifest itself in the religious sector of our society. Certain religions may be looked down upon because of the peoples that make up their congregation or because of their beliefs. For example, even today African American churches are burned and mosques are vandalized. What about discrimination against people with handicaps, certain income levels, or sexual orientation. It is clear that discrimination, in many forms, exists in 2004.
On to another issue...As P.J. said, we can pass legislation till the cows come home, but that doesn't change the way people operate. In general, people are going to be drawn to the people that are most like them. This creates issues with us segregating ourselves. How many times have you walked in to a school cafeteria and seen the African-American students sitting on one side and the white students sitting on another? I assert that as a people, we tend to segregate ourselves and no legislation can stop the natural tendencies of humans.
However, that is not to say that I necessarily agree with how we operate. I do think that by flocking to people that are like us, we are very likely missing out on knowing some really interesting people... people that we could learn a lot from.... and who could learn a lot from us. Enough of that... looking forward to seeing you all Monday! :)
-----Original Message-----
From: Laura Johnston
mailto:laj08@uark.edu
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 4:17 PM
Subject: Laura Johnston
Thread posted by
Nicole Deeter
I think that this case was very appropriate and made a difference in our world, our views, society, cultures and in our education systems. I think today that multicutural classes are awesome. They benefit us in so many ways because you learn so much from diver students and they learn a lot from you. I think in this world today you are always going to have someone who discriminates anything. You are also going to have someone who disagrees with an issue. You can either sit back and listen to what they have to say or you can challenge there thoughts and make them look at it in a different way. I also agree with P.J about the drug issue he mentioned in his discussion. You can have a rule but that doesn't mean everyone is going to follow it. I believe that in the end somehow some way that person is going to pay for there actions.
-----Original Message-----
From: Nicole Deeter
mailto:ndeeter@uark.edu
Sent: Sunday, July 18, 2004 8:27 PM
Subject: Brown Disscusion
*This is the next step toward THE One World Language.
Step Twenty Three: *Three rubrics in the rabbit hole!
Planet Gnosis is ruled by Freddie A. Bowles, a professional educator and fellow at the Department of Curriculum and Instruction, the University of Arkansas at Fayetteville. An independent entity in the CornDancer consortium of planets, Planet Gnosis is dedicated to the exploration of education and teaching. CornDancer is a developmental website for the mind and spirit maintained by webmistress Freddie A. Bowles of the Planet Earth. Submissions are invited.
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